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Log of AMA @ ark.io/slack with bitbay.market - @dzimbeck (David Zimbeck), @Munti (Bjørn Alsos)

dr10 Let us all welcome team from :bitbay: bitbay.market :bitbay: - @dzimbeck (David zimbeck ) and @Munti (Bjørn Alsos). You can all start asking them questions. I'd ask team from bitbay.market to use @ username to the one they are responding to and I'd like to ask all the community to give them some time to catch up if too many questions in backlog, before asking more so questions don't get lost. Thank you!
dzimbeck Hi
dr10 Hello
Munti Hi
dzimbeck Wow you guys have quite the slack. 7k people
dzimbeck very professional site too, always noticed that
dr10 haha, yeah grew a bit over time
dzimbeck Also a decent domain.
arigard @dzimbeck Man, I remember you from back in the day in Blackcoin
dzimbeck Haha yes that is where I started
dr10 okay guys, start with your questions :wink:
Munti Is there anyone helping us keep track of any questions we might miss because we are busy answering?
dzimbeck But I'm not the dev of Blackcoin
dzimbeck I only wrote Halo into it because I needed an alt
dr10 I have an eye on the chat and people notice when you didnt answer it, dont worry :smile:
dzimbeck and didn't want to start a pump thing
tranzer What is BitBay in few words. Are you anonymous marketplace? (edited)
dzimbeck Unbreakable contracts, Anonymous serverless markets and rolling peg
dzimbeck all of those features are extremely important for decentralization and computer science in general
dzimbeck "Unbreakable contracts" is the non-technical term for "Double deposit escrow"
dzimbeck It works by both parties placing a deposit in a joint account
dzimbeck and if they cheat each other they both lose their funds when the time limit expires
dzimbeck making the contract somewhat unbreakable
dzimbeck regardless of what is agreed to
btcmacroecon what if one cheats the other?
dzimbeck since it's a joint account
btcmacroecon hunt them down?
dzimbeck you need that person to sign off
dzimbeck so they lose money
dzimbeck they can't cheat you
dzimbeck example:
dzimbeck you want to buy a guitar
dzimbeck which costs 100 dollars
dzimbeck so you put up a deposit of 100 and also 100 into the joint account
dzimbeck the seller also puts up 100 to guarantee shipping and their own honesty
dzimbeck when the seller sends the guitar if you steal it
dzimbeck then seller won't sign off on the contract
dzimbeck causing both parties to lose money
dzimbeck (you just paid 200 for a 100 dollar it)
dzimbeck So this forces users to work together
dzimbeck better than E-bay with arbiters
dzimbeck in fact.. I am shocked this isn't the industry standard
tranzer Are there any limits on how much can someone sell or buy item for?
dzimbeck I've been doing this for 4 years since BitHalo started
Munti When you use double deposit escrow, your protection is based upon the fact that no one can gain anything by breaking the deal. That pretty much eliminates scammers as there is no incentive for them.
btcmacroecon what if the seller "says" the other stole the guitar, when in reality it was received, it's jus seller wont sign off on it to be a dick
dzimbeck No limits
dzimbeck and deposits are negotiable (edited)
donze Nice idea
ulyssessyoungo interesting
dzimbeck @btcmacroecon Because the seller will lose money if he does
Munti I actually just bought a property in our marketplace. Got the paperwork in the mail today
donze Your market is active?
dzimbeck Being a dick doesn't profit a dime
donze Or work in progress
dzimbeck It actually costs money to be a dick
dzimbeck which is what we WANT
arigard @dzimbeck is that similar to the two way mad escrow Particl are working on?
ulyssessyoungo I like the sound of that
dzimbeck we want jerks to be broke
dzimbeck we want politicians to be the ones begging for food on the street
ulyssessyoungo do you have any system beyond that
Munti Our marketplace has been operational since early 2015
ulyssessyoungo to see if people honor the contracts?
ulyssessyoungo like user history or something
dzimbeck Oh there is tons of systems in BitBay
little_round Particl took it from bitbay
dzimbeck we actually have a wall of features
ulyssessyoungo I mean like
ulyssessyoungo say a guy has a history of blowing up contracts
dzimbeck http://bitbay.market/wall
ulyssessyoungo are those people easily identified as bad business?
tranzer Do you have numbers of how many people "were dicks" and how much was already agreed upon in your marketplace (like yearly turnaround)?
dzimbeck Yes
dzimbeck You can see how many contracts their profile has blown up
dzimbeck so you can mathematically calculate what their deposit should be!
dzimbeck It's like the perfect escrow for p2p transactions
ulyssessyoungo that's nice
Munti Actually particl (then shadowcoin) tried to hire David to make the marketplace for them many years ago. When he declined, they tried to revers enginer his code. They failed :slightly_smiling_face:
ulyssessyoungo So like a reputation system?
ulyssessyoungo I always check vendor reputations on alibaba, amazon etc.
arigard @Munti really? Interesting..
dzimbeck And it's been working for 3+ years it was actually the worlds first smart contracts
dzimbeck Yep
btcmacroecon is there a scenario when a seller would lose money if it harmed the buyer, even if seller loses money, adversely affecting the buyer, even if guitar received, to cause buyer to lose money? Or woul buyer come out ahead cause of guitar, or would that mean net loss for buyer in this scenario, despite "seller wouldn't do it cause he loses money assumption"
dzimbeck we have a reputation system
dzimbeck Yes you are right
dzimbeck but consider this @btcmacroecon
shtand Does the seller always match 100% of the value of what they're selling?
dzimbeck The seller does cause buyer to lose
dzimbeck but now they have proof they are blowing up contracts
dzimbeck who would want to work with that seller later?
dzimbeck Also that seller would be asked in future deals for a LARGER deposit
btcmacroecon ok and ebay has good marketplace for reputation.
dzimbeck meaning being a jerk is progressive;y cost inhibitive
dzimbeck And this reputation system there is no way to lie about it
Munti @dzimbeck I just noticed we both forget to use @ to make it clear who we are answering
dzimbeck because there is cryptographic proof you blew up the funds
btcmacroecon ok good to wait for established track record
dzimbeck I will use the @ more thanks
dzimbeck @shtand Not always
ulyssessyoungo eBay is good with the reputation system but not so much the arbitration
ulyssessyoungo so that makes me interested in alternatives
dzimbeck matching 1:1 is a great way to deal with strangers you don't trust
dzimbeck But a great seller might only put up 10%
ulyssessyoungo i've been screwed selling some high ticket items on ebay before, not terribly so but enough to make me wonder what the point of a middleman is if they just side with the buyer in most cases
dzimbeck exactly!!
donze safex will be full anonymous and will give dividends to those who own it, what are the advantages of bitbay other than being ahead in the roadmap?
dzimbeck But guys this isn't just buying and selling
dzimbeck who here has outsourced?
btcmacroecon What about where damage or not represented product as advertised? same thing? comes down to reputation scores?
dzimbeck @donze that would be the rolling peg we will get to that
arigard Does Bitbay have any anon functionality?
dzimbeck @btcmacroecon Realize a seller loses funds for damaged items if blown up. He will be much more motivated to work with buyer than he would be in e-bay
dzimbeck BitBays markets are anon
Munti @ donze If safex is able to pay dividends, they will need to take that money from somewhere. Fees? We have no fees (edited)
dzimbeck because they use Bitmessage
dzimbeck and we don't bloat the blockchain
dzimbeck because Bitmessage is p2p
dzimbeck and no chain is used
shtand what's determining who a 'great seller' is and what % they need to match then?
dzimbeck thus no servers
kimchi ...where does bitbay profit come from?
tranzer How is BitBay team being funded?
dzimbeck sender is hidden because messages are passed around making it hard to find the origin
dzimbeck decoding messages is plausible deniability because nobody knows if you have decryption key
dzimbeck (a market is a shared key)
dzimbeck @shtand A great seller would be someone with tons of contracts that didn't blow up
RQDxRocket joined #trading_altcoins.
arigard What about transactions, are they hidden too?
Munti @kimchi BitBay in itself does not need profit. The holders of the coin will get their profit from higher value because we gain adoption. and we are years ahead in this race, so should have a decent chance to increase price a lot
dzimbeck @kimchi I don't profit much from BitBay. We are mostly self funded
moon joined #trading_altcoins.
ulyssessyoungo Yeah it's not a centralized service so i don't see why it would need "profit" given that it's just a network
btcmacroecon does bitbay have any interest in their service being used with other projects to form a marketplace? any room for collaboration if buyers / sellers can be rounded up for establishing marketplace, reputation, including commodity trading?
ulyssessyoungo BAY is POS right?
tranzer Is BitBay POS or mineable or what consensus algo does it use?
dzimbeck @arigard Transactions aren't anon
dzimbeck but I'm a big ffan of zero knowledge proofs
dzimbeck There is ways to hide the person broadcasting using Bitmessage
dzimbeck but I haven't implemented
dzimbeck I'm a purist so if an anon route is chosen later then it will be on a very high level
arigard Will you be looking to do those kinds of things in the future? Maybe something like Zerocoin etc?
dzimbeck @tranzer POS
kimchi When can I see the beta version?
Munti @kimchi Also, Double deposit escrow ties up a lot of money, so when marketplace becomes really active , that will have tremendous impact on coin supply (reduced supply because of DDE). An average daily turnover on our marketplace of 1k dollars can create demand for as much as 30k-50k dollars worth of Bay (edited)
dzimbeck Maybe a side chain arigard
dzimbeck Since the main chain doesn't need to be anon
dzimbeck also anon would interfere with the rolling peg
dzimbeck Jesus zero proof:heart_eyes:
dzimbeck depending on what i choose for it
donze What is actual year trade volume of bitbay?
Munti @btcmacroecon BitBay is open for working with partners
dzimbeck @ulyssessyoungo yeah profit from escrow is not wise since it eliminates the middle man, we would not want the liability
dzimbeck also I meant to say earlier
dzimbeck these contracts work with employees too
dzimbeck so an employee is forced to honor his/her word
dzimbeck and employer is forced to pay
dzimbeck so no more unreliable outsourcers
Munti @donze Trade volume varies a lot like it does for most coins
dzimbeck It's been over a million a lot
btcmacroecon what do you think about creating a trading floor for commodities, or whatever "product" or "service" say "electronics" or "beer" or "metals"
dzimbeck but then it goes down to 50-500k
dzimbeck We don't fake our volume
dzimbeck :smile:
dzimbeck that is why, this is a very organic project
dzimbeck You see I used to be BitHalo
dzimbeck which was years before Ethereum
dzimbeck and was hired on to the BitBay project, the people who hired me disappeared
dzimbeck so the community and myself took it over
dzimbeck making it pretty organic
ulyssessyoungo I have been in your Slack for some time, i can vouch that you guys seem to be one of the more transparent teams.
Munti @btcmacroecon We already kind of have a trading floor for commodities. We have a fully working marketplace. In one of the comming updates we will also add templates for auctions.
dzimbeck BitHalo is still active but it's worth pointing out that all new templates and features will be withheld from BitHalo to give BitBay maximum impact
Bitbay1 uploaded this image: m2.jpg 1 Comment
btcmacroecon i like the concept and not of ebay as a seller given their fees, or as a buyer with paypal.
ulyssessyoungo lol those boots
dzimbeck Ebays biggest problem is scam buyers
dzimbeck no way to stop it
dzimbeck In our platform that is not going to happen
dzimbeck And let me stress something else
dzimbeck This is Bitcoin
dzimbeck which is anonymous
dzimbeck so scams are more prevalent
dzimbeck which is why it shocks me
dzimbeck that this isn't the industry standard for escrow
btcmacroecon but the man is wise
dzimbeck Plus we don't have to deal with arbiters
dzimbeck the analogy is you go to court... would you trust 12 peers and a judge to decide your fate?
dzimbeck I wouldn't
dzimbeck A witness where it's your word against theirs
dzimbeck This is a better system. There is no judge
dzimbeck just perp and victim
btcmacroecon i havent been to court once where the truth was spoken
dzimbeck empowering victims a little bit more
dzimbeck "instant karma"
dzimbeck That is exactly why I made this
btcmacroecon i had proof attorney was lying but judge refused to let me play it as i ha proo
dzimbeck Oh jesus
dzimbeck that sucks
btcmacroecon i was going to hit play in courtroom but she freaked out on the bench said i would not play it in her courtroom!
V01D Would there be any backlash against the name bitbay in the future if a company like eBay felt threatened?
dzimbeck Yeah also realize that losing a deposit makes a victim feel like the person who screwed them paid for it
btcmacroecon protected the liar
dzimbeck I don't think so but we can always rebrand
dzimbeck there is an exchange called BitBay too
dzimbeck timing was almost the same as ours
btcmacroecon 591 price on bay on bittrex
dzimbeck we had an international presence first
dzimbeck As for price
Munti @VO1D I don't see how ebay could do something about that. But then I'm not a lawyer
dzimbeck This IS a trading channel
V01D I see, thank you
dzimbeck we should talk about the rolling peg
btcmacroecon i sold all bay at 860
dzimbeck So when the project started I wasn't the founder
btcmacroecon pissed i could have got 870
dzimbeck so I knew there had to be a way to protect investors in case something bad happened
Munti LOL
dzimbeck So the rolling peg was designed
dzimbeck similar to an economic crawling peg
dzimbeck The way it works is this: we can control the supply of the coin by simply freezing it
dzimbeck so as most coins only inflate
dzimbeck this coin does both
dzimbeck it inflates and deflates
yin :open_mouth:
dzimbeck but it only freezes the coins temporarily to stop dumps on the market
dzimbeck and it does so exactly fairly
codnose It's been a bad 24 hours for lots of alts. It will bounce back @btcmacroecon ;)
dzimbeck coins have memory in this system so each coin knows it's own liquidity
funkedelics proof to back up your claim? Munti Actually particl (then shadowcoin) tried to hire David to make the marketplace for them many years ago. When he declined, they tried to revers enginer his code. They failed :slightly_smiling_face: Posted in #trading_altcoinsToday at 7:09 PM
dzimbeck reddit
btcmacroecon yah i hope to reposition on this coin as we speak
codnose Good few days for bay recently. I'm holding since a while back
dzimbeck there is proof where I fought with veritasBS from ShadowCash
dzimbeck They tried to reverse my code
Bitbay1 Freezing via decentralized voting?
dzimbeck it was famous
funkedelics link?
Munti @funkedelics On reddit as David said. I'm sure we can find a link for you after this session is over
dzimbeck Someone else can find it
dzimbeck @funkedelics
dzimbeck It is on the blackcoin subreddit
btcmacroecon what are you doing to avoid illegal activity, kyc, and silk road activity?
dzimbeck if you wanna look
dzimbeck @btcmacroecon I have a mod key which users subscribe to
dzimbeck which is handed out
dzimbeck so decentralized mod i guess
dzimbeck also users encrypt their IP within their orders
dzimbeck so if for some reason a swat team shows up at my house I just tell them they are free to use it
kimchi What is the return or refund?..
dzimbeck In theory we shouldn't need to deal with silk road type problems
btcmacroecon id say get a fkn warrant, shut the door
dzimbeck since we don't host anything
dzimbeck That too
codnose Rolling peg sounds very interesting. Is there a link here?
dzimbeck But we don't live in a fair world @btcmacroecon
dzimbeck USA arrested a guy in Greece who was a Russian citizen
dzimbeck nonsense
btcmacroecon and those that vote i big corrupt government blame trump
dzimbeck https://bitbay.market/about/pegging/ BitBay Rolling Peg - BitBay Price volatility is cryptocurrency's biggest challenge - BitBay's rolling peg will reduce volatility by dynamically controlling supply. Learn more here.
dzimbeck Never blame Trump
dzimbeck blame military intelligence
dzimbeck and compartmentalization
Munti @codnose our site is going through a little redesign atm, but the info on the rolling peg will be back up soon
btcmacroecon new vorld odor! I blame "globalism"
imyb commented on Bitbay1’s file m2.jpg Is this really what it's going to look like?
dzimbeck :smile:
codnose Great thanks @Munti
Munti LOL, it was back up (edited)
dzimbeck well whatever powerful people do
dzimbeck it's our job to come up with solutions like unbreakable contracts
dzimbeck these contracts work in an anarchy
dzimbeck literally
dzimbeck The rolling peg is meant to allow low cap coins
dzimbeck to thrive
little_round @imyb No, it will be changed
dzimbeck because the control of supply lets us force the price
dzimbeck by voting on supply
yin damn your product sounds awesome! but you need a redesign of your website :smile:
dzimbeck so example
btcmacroecon so you in essence have a dashboard already active.
dzimbeck if a user has 1000 coins at 100% at .10 cents per coin
WeeMan Mike joined #trading_altcoins.
dzimbeck and the network deflates to 50%
dzimbeck he would have 500 coins liquid and 500 frozen
Munti @btcmacroecon What do you mean by dashboard?
dzimbeck he can move the liquid coins as much as he wants
btcmacroecon you have a marketplace or dashboard like ebay has basically?
dzimbeck the frozen coins he can move but with a penalty a one month delay
Munti @btcmacroecon Yes (edited)
dzimbeck which makes a secondary market for trading frozen coins
codnose Like the eBay dashboard right @btcmacroecon ?
dzimbeck at a more speculative value
btcmacroecon you just need to expand on it with volume
Bitbay1 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9hEpu8gZMzEcP22rMYX0Iw/videos YouTube BitBay Official BitBay youtube channel
dzimbeck we can assume his liquid coins would be worth about double than before if demand is about the same
btcmacroecon do you offer any affiliate programs to market for that volume?
dzimbeck Good idea
dzimbeck @btcmacroecon Working on that now
dzimbeck We have just started discussions about incentives
dzimbeck @kimchi please elaborate
dzimbeck return or refund on what?
kimchi I bought shoes. But what if a brick comes? There is an image on top that sells shoes.
dzimbeck Then seller would pay 100 dollars
dzimbeck if you blow it up
dzimbeck so negotiate a refund
dzimbeck the seller will most definitely reconsider
dzimbeck since he doesn't want to pay 100 dollars to be a joker
dzimbeck You can cancel contracts
dzimbeck returning all funds
Anoeng joined #trading_altcoins.
dzimbeck upon mutual consent
dzimbeck everything is consent
btcmacroecon does bitbay have the ability to accept payment in a variety of cryptocurrency? I think that's where volume could come in, or a gateway to exchange tokens and buyer / seller can arrive at payment and yet can be worked via bitbay smart contract or escrowing? could that work, is it possible, if not care to explore it?
dzimbeck the way a contract should be
dzimbeck Yes
codnose Ha that's awesome actually. Why would a seller send anything else knowing they'd lose their deposit ?
dzimbeck You can use Ark to pay
dzimbeck Bay is only used as a deposit
dzimbeck you might have to specify the coins you would accept in your contract
ulyssessyoungo nice
ulyssessyoungo i like that
btcmacroecon and what about dogecoin for example?
codnose Yeah that's cool
ulyssessyoungo Definitely adds to the viability of the platform
codnose Whatcoin? Lol
dzimbeck yeah codnose it forces honesty
dzimbeck and the same for employees
Munti @btcmacroecon Also, our platform is very broad. You can use it for almost anything. We already had all kinds of things sold there from pins to property. Many coins have also been sold there. Our market is like an improved localbitcoin. Binary opptions is also you can find on our marketoplace regularly. And I'm sure we havent even scrathced the surface yet. In the future we will have API's so ppl can tailor their own version of our marketplace.
dzimbeck if I hire someone using this system
btcmacroecon ok deposit only, making more sense now
ulyssessyoungo BAY as a currency would certainly take off best after the Rolling Peg
dzimbeck they better do what they say
ulyssessyoungo but in the meantime that's awesome that you can use other coins
dzimbeck I actually used to it motivate myself
Bitbay1 Why not sell Ark for Bay on the market :slightly_smiling_face:
Bitbay1 or Btc
dzimbeck had my friend blow up my money if I didn't do my daily errands
dzimbeck imagine having 10 grand deterrent
dzimbeck :smile:
bivins Greetings
dzimbeck You can trade coins on the market
dzimbeck especially microtrade
codnose You bought some land using this you said @Munti ?
dzimbeck but it is slow
dzimbeck for that I recommend atomic trade
dzimbeck It's not that fast paced trading that traders demand...
dzimbeck but
codnose No worries about losing any money ? I take it it wasn't just a few dollars
dzimbeck Someone did sell IOTA on our platform
dzimbeck and did lots of deals
Bitbay1 yes before IOTA came into the exchanges
Munti @codnose Yes I did. Got the paperwork in the mail today. 5 acres of land in California. (And I live in Norway) (edited)
prasanth can we stake coins in the market client??
Munti Yes
dzimbeck Staking is done using 2 keys
dzimbeck so you can actually stake over LAN too
tranzer Could BitBay somehow bridge with Ark and offer their services to Ark users?
dzimbeck using 2 computers
dzimbeck it's called "cold staking"
dzimbeck no hacking is possible here
dzimbeck ever
dzimbeck you can hide keys in images
btcmacroecon ok i admit failure on setting up CoinURL as I tried to set up online store, to sell some code, my wildlife photography, and rocks and gems I prospect, I'd like to set up BitBay on an Iframe into my site, and capture affiliate biz. Sounds like this is almost possible, and I could sell my jade right through my site, at least offer it up, right?
dzimbeck and have dual passwords and use 2 computers to sign transactions automated
Munti @tranzer We would have to look into that. But I don't see any reason why we could not.
dzimbeck We need a web wallet
dzimbeck that is our biggest challenge
dzimbeck since I made this with a "security first" attitude
dzimbeck being a cryptographer (edited)
dzimbeck I forgot the reason to make everything web based
Munti @btcmacroecon We are not quite there yet, but yes, that's where we're going
dzimbeck Didn't want to sacrifice security
dzimbeck now I realize there is a need for web based platforms
codnose I follow you on twitter and saw that mentioned the other day. It's coming soon? @dzimbeck
dzimbeck that sacrifice a little security for speed and ease of use in phones
dzimbeck A web wallet?
codnose Yeah
dzimbeck Yeah well we will have a basic web wallet very soon
dzimbeck its actually a very nice one (edited)
dzimbeck But I was referring to a market wallet
dzimbeck one with the full contract implementation
dzimbeck we hope to do that after the peg is successful
Munti Keep an eye on our next weekly update (sunday) for roadmap for the rest of this year. You will get details there
dzimbeck since it's more important to deliver on what I promise
dzimbeck than to make up new features
dzimbeck aka "scope creep" a programmers worst enemy
mergatroid Hello
dzimbeck Hi
mergatroid Please comment on recent news around SEC delistings on bittrex - what steps are you taking to communicate with user base as to whether your a security and what you plan to do if you are classified as such
dzimbeck The rolling peg is the priority
dzimbeck Since Tether is unreliable
dzimbeck this is a decentralized peg
dzimbeck that isn't fixed at a certain price
dzimbeck so it can "roll" the price up
codnose Sounds like you have a lot of nice things planned :)
dzimbeck so it starts at say 5 cents
dzimbeck and slowly rolls up to 10 cents
dzimbeck over X amount of time
dzimbeck after that we would love to focus on web implementations
dzimbeck however anyone who wants to plug this into their site should contact us, we can set up some API calls for sure
Munti @mergatroid I just became aware of the SEC issue on Bittrex today, and have not had time to study it. But going by the little I did read, it doesn't seem to be a problem for us.
mergatroid Ok - so no plan so far understand
dzimbeck we aren't a security
dzimbeck because we don't pay dividends
mergatroid Thankyou
codnose Just on your website now @dzimbeck @Munti
dr10 OK we are approaching 1 hour mark. If you guys have any questions left, go ahead. Anything bitbay.market team would like to add or tell - feel free to do.
V01D Thanks for your time bitbay team
dzimbeck Thanks for doing this! It was fun. And maybe I have a few questions about Ark later
dzimbeck :slightly_smiling_face:
codnose Looking good. Thanks for stopping by :)
dzimbeck Any other questions?
dzimbeck Perhaps regarding the peg, contracts or markets?
Boris Is dzimbeck a god?
dzimbeck :smile:
dzimbeck no
dzimbeck I bleed
codnose Haha I'd heard that too
codnose At least in coding terms lol
dr10 Thank you David and Bjørn for taking the time to do this AMA! All the best with the project and you are always welcome to hang around our Slack
Munti If anyone wants more info, you are welcome to our slack http://bitbay.market/wp-login.php?action=slack-invitation
dzimbeck Honestly a little bit of effort is all these things take
dzimbeck Thanks dr10
Munti Thanks for having us. This was fun
submitted by Dr10tv to BitBay [link] [comments]

Log of AMA with bitbay.market - @dzimbeck (David Zimbeck), @Munti (Bjørn Alsos)

dr10 Let us all welcome team from :bitbay: bitbay.market :bitbay: - @dzimbeck (David zimbeck ) and @Munti (Bjørn Alsos). You can all start asking them questions. I'd ask team from bitbay.market to use @ username to the one they are responding to and I'd like to ask all the community to give them some time to catch up if too many questions in backlog, before asking more so questions don't get lost. Thank you!
dzimbeck Hi
dr10 Hello
Munti Hi
dzimbeck Wow you guys have quite the slack. 7k people
dzimbeck very professional site too, always noticed that
dr10 haha, yeah grew a bit over time
dzimbeck Also a decent domain.
arigard @dzimbeck Man, I remember you from back in the day in Blackcoin
dzimbeck Haha yes that is where I started
dr10 okay guys, start with your questions :wink:
Munti Is there anyone helping us keep track of any questions we might miss because we are busy answering?
dzimbeck But I'm not the dev of Blackcoin
dzimbeck I only wrote Halo into it because I needed an alt
dr10 I have an eye on the chat and people notice when you didnt answer it, dont worry :smile:
dzimbeck and didn't want to start a pump thing
tranzer What is BitBay in few words. Are you anonymous marketplace? (edited)
dzimbeck Unbreakable contracts, Anonymous serverless markets and rolling peg
dzimbeck all of those features are extremely important for decentralization and computer science in general
dzimbeck "Unbreakable contracts" is the non-technical term for "Double deposit escrow"
dzimbeck It works by both parties placing a deposit in a joint account
dzimbeck and if they cheat each other they both lose their funds when the time limit expires
dzimbeck making the contract somewhat unbreakable
dzimbeck regardless of what is agreed to
btcmacroecon what if one cheats the other?
dzimbeck since it's a joint account
btcmacroecon hunt them down?
dzimbeck you need that person to sign off
dzimbeck so they lose money
dzimbeck they can't cheat you
dzimbeck example:
dzimbeck you want to buy a guitar
dzimbeck which costs 100 dollars
dzimbeck so you put up a deposit of 100 and also 100 into the joint account
dzimbeck the seller also puts up 100 to guarantee shipping and their own honesty
dzimbeck when the seller sends the guitar if you steal it
dzimbeck then seller won't sign off on the contract
dzimbeck causing both parties to lose money
dzimbeck (you just paid 200 for a 100 dollar it)
dzimbeck So this forces users to work together
dzimbeck better than E-bay with arbiters
dzimbeck in fact.. I am shocked this isn't the industry standard
tranzer Are there any limits on how much can someone sell or buy item for?
dzimbeck I've been doing this for 4 years since BitHalo started
Munti When you use double deposit escrow, your protection is based upon the fact that no one can gain anything by breaking the deal. That pretty much eliminates scammers as there is no incentive for them.
btcmacroecon what if the seller "says" the other stole the guitar, when in reality it was received, it's jus seller wont sign off on it to be a dick
dzimbeck No limits
dzimbeck and deposits are negotiable (edited)
donze Nice idea
ulyssessyoungo interesting
dzimbeck @btcmacroecon Because the seller will lose money if he does
Munti I actually just bought a property in our marketplace. Got the paperwork in the mail today
donze Your market is active?
dzimbeck Being a dick doesn't profit a dime
donze Or work in progress
dzimbeck It actually costs money to be a dick
dzimbeck which is what we WANT
arigard @dzimbeck is that similar to the two way mad escrow Particl are working on?
ulyssessyoungo I like the sound of that
dzimbeck we want jerks to be broke
dzimbeck we want politicians to be the ones begging for food on the street
ulyssessyoungo do you have any system beyond that
Munti Our marketplace has been operational since early 2015
ulyssessyoungo to see if people honor the contracts?
ulyssessyoungo like user history or something
dzimbeck Oh there is tons of systems in BitBay
little_round Particl took it from bitbay
dzimbeck we actually have a wall of features
ulyssessyoungo I mean like
ulyssessyoungo say a guy has a history of blowing up contracts
dzimbeck http://bitbay.market/wall
ulyssessyoungo are those people easily identified as bad business?
tranzer Do you have numbers of how many people "were dicks" and how much was already agreed upon in your marketplace (like yearly turnaround)?
dzimbeck Yes
dzimbeck You can see how many contracts their profile has blown up
dzimbeck so you can mathematically calculate what their deposit should be!
dzimbeck It's like the perfect escrow for p2p transactions
ulyssessyoungo that's nice
Munti Actually particl (then shadowcoin) tried to hire David to make the marketplace for them many years ago. When he declined, they tried to revers enginer his code. They failed :slightly_smiling_face:
ulyssessyoungo So like a reputation system?
ulyssessyoungo I always check vendor reputations on alibaba, amazon etc.
arigard @Munti really? Interesting..
dzimbeck And it's been working for 3+ years it was actually the worlds first smart contracts
dzimbeck Yep
btcmacroecon is there a scenario when a seller would lose money if it harmed the buyer, even if seller loses money, adversely affecting the buyer, even if guitar received, to cause buyer to lose money? Or woul buyer come out ahead cause of guitar, or would that mean net loss for buyer in this scenario, despite "seller wouldn't do it cause he loses money assumption"
dzimbeck we have a reputation system
dzimbeck Yes you are right
dzimbeck but consider this @btcmacroecon
shtand Does the seller always match 100% of the value of what they're selling?
dzimbeck The seller does cause buyer to lose
dzimbeck but now they have proof they are blowing up contracts
dzimbeck who would want to work with that seller later?
dzimbeck Also that seller would be asked in future deals for a LARGER deposit
btcmacroecon ok and ebay has good marketplace for reputation.
dzimbeck meaning being a jerk is progressive;y cost inhibitive
dzimbeck And this reputation system there is no way to lie about it
Munti @dzimbeck I just noticed we both forget to use @ to make it clear who we are answering
dzimbeck because there is cryptographic proof you blew up the funds
btcmacroecon ok good to wait for established track record
dzimbeck I will use the @ more thanks
dzimbeck @shtand Not always
ulyssessyoungo eBay is good with the reputation system but not so much the arbitration
ulyssessyoungo so that makes me interested in alternatives
dzimbeck matching 1:1 is a great way to deal with strangers you don't trust
dzimbeck But a great seller might only put up 10%
ulyssessyoungo i've been screwed selling some high ticket items on ebay before, not terribly so but enough to make me wonder what the point of a middleman is if they just side with the buyer in most cases
dzimbeck exactly!!
donze safex will be full anonymous and will give dividends to those who own it, what are the advantages of bitbay other than being ahead in the roadmap?
dzimbeck But guys this isn't just buying and selling
dzimbeck who here has outsourced?
btcmacroecon What about where damage or not represented product as advertised? same thing? comes down to reputation scores?
dzimbeck @donze that would be the rolling peg we will get to that
arigard Does Bitbay have any anon functionality?
dzimbeck @btcmacroecon Realize a seller loses funds for damaged items if blown up. He will be much more motivated to work with buyer than he would be in e-bay
dzimbeck BitBays markets are anon
Munti @ donze If safex is able to pay dividends, they will need to take that money from somewhere. Fees? We have no fees (edited)
dzimbeck because they use Bitmessage
dzimbeck and we don't bloat the blockchain
dzimbeck because Bitmessage is p2p
dzimbeck and no chain is used
shtand what's determining who a 'great seller' is and what % they need to match then?
dzimbeck thus no servers
kimchi ...where does bitbay profit come from?
tranzer How is BitBay team being funded?
dzimbeck sender is hidden because messages are passed around making it hard to find the origin
dzimbeck decoding messages is plausible deniability because nobody knows if you have decryption key
dzimbeck (a market is a shared key)
dzimbeck @shtand A great seller would be someone with tons of contracts that didn't blow up
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arigard What about transactions, are they hidden too?
Munti @kimchi BitBay in itself does not need profit. The holders of the coin will get their profit from higher value because we gain adoption. and we are years ahead in this race, so should have a decent chance to increase price a lot
dzimbeck @kimchi I don't profit much from BitBay. We are mostly self funded
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ulyssessyoungo Yeah it's not a centralized service so i don't see why it would need "profit" given that it's just a network
btcmacroecon does bitbay have any interest in their service being used with other projects to form a marketplace? any room for collaboration if buyers / sellers can be rounded up for establishing marketplace, reputation, including commodity trading?
ulyssessyoungo BAY is POS right?
tranzer Is BitBay POS or mineable or what consensus algo does it use?
dzimbeck @arigard Transactions aren't anon
dzimbeck but I'm a big ffan of zero knowledge proofs
dzimbeck There is ways to hide the person broadcasting using Bitmessage
dzimbeck but I haven't implemented
dzimbeck I'm a purist so if an anon route is chosen later then it will be on a very high level
arigard Will you be looking to do those kinds of things in the future? Maybe something like Zerocoin etc?
dzimbeck @tranzer POS
kimchi When can I see the beta version?
Munti @kimchi Also, Double deposit escrow ties up a lot of money, so when marketplace becomes really active , that will have tremendous impact on coin supply (reduced supply because of DDE). An average daily turnover on our marketplace of 1k dollars can create demand for as much as 30k-50k dollars worth of Bay (edited)
dzimbeck Maybe a side chain arigard
dzimbeck Since the main chain doesn't need to be anon
dzimbeck also anon would interfere with the rolling peg
dzimbeck Jesus zero proof:heart_eyes:
dzimbeck depending on what i choose for it
donze What is actual year trade volume of bitbay?
Munti @btcmacroecon BitBay is open for working with partners
dzimbeck @ulyssessyoungo yeah profit from escrow is not wise since it eliminates the middle man, we would not want the liability
dzimbeck also I meant to say earlier
dzimbeck these contracts work with employees too
dzimbeck so an employee is forced to honor his/her word
dzimbeck and employer is forced to pay
dzimbeck so no more unreliable outsourcers
Munti @donze Trade volume varies a lot like it does for most coins
dzimbeck It's been over a million a lot
btcmacroecon what do you think about creating a trading floor for commodities, or whatever "product" or "service" say "electronics" or "beer" or "metals"
dzimbeck but then it goes down to 50-500k
dzimbeck We don't fake our volume
dzimbeck :smile:
dzimbeck that is why, this is a very organic project
dzimbeck You see I used to be BitHalo
dzimbeck which was years before Ethereum
dzimbeck and was hired on to the BitBay project, the people who hired me disappeared
dzimbeck so the community and myself took it over
dzimbeck making it pretty organic
ulyssessyoungo I have been in your Slack for some time, i can vouch that you guys seem to be one of the more transparent teams.
Munti @btcmacroecon We already kind of have a trading floor for commodities. We have a fully working marketplace. In one of the comming updates we will also add templates for auctions.
dzimbeck BitHalo is still active but it's worth pointing out that all new templates and features will be withheld from BitHalo to give BitBay maximum impact
Bitbay1 uploaded this image: m2.jpg 1 Comment
btcmacroecon i like the concept and not of ebay as a seller given their fees, or as a buyer with paypal.
ulyssessyoungo lol those boots
dzimbeck Ebays biggest problem is scam buyers
dzimbeck no way to stop it
dzimbeck In our platform that is not going to happen
dzimbeck And let me stress something else
dzimbeck This is Bitcoin
dzimbeck which is anonymous
dzimbeck so scams are more prevalent
dzimbeck which is why it shocks me
dzimbeck that this isn't the industry standard for escrow
btcmacroecon but the man is wise
dzimbeck Plus we don't have to deal with arbiters
dzimbeck the analogy is you go to court... would you trust 12 peers and a judge to decide your fate?
dzimbeck I wouldn't
dzimbeck A witness where it's your word against theirs
dzimbeck This is a better system. There is no judge
dzimbeck just perp and victim
btcmacroecon i havent been to court once where the truth was spoken
dzimbeck empowering victims a little bit more
dzimbeck "instant karma"
dzimbeck That is exactly why I made this
btcmacroecon i had proof attorney was lying but judge refused to let me play it as i ha proo
dzimbeck Oh jesus
dzimbeck that sucks
btcmacroecon i was going to hit play in courtroom but she freaked out on the bench said i would not play it in her courtroom!
V01D Would there be any backlash against the name bitbay in the future if a company like eBay felt threatened?
dzimbeck Yeah also realize that losing a deposit makes a victim feel like the person who screwed them paid for it
btcmacroecon protected the liar
dzimbeck I don't think so but we can always rebrand
dzimbeck there is an exchange called BitBay too
dzimbeck timing was almost the same as ours
btcmacroecon 591 price on bay on bittrex
dzimbeck we had an international presence first
dzimbeck As for price
Munti @VO1D I don't see how ebay could do something about that. But then I'm not a lawyer
dzimbeck This IS a trading channel
V01D I see, thank you
dzimbeck we should talk about the rolling peg
btcmacroecon i sold all bay at 860
dzimbeck So when the project started I wasn't the founder
btcmacroecon pissed i could have got 870
dzimbeck so I knew there had to be a way to protect investors in case something bad happened
Munti LOL
dzimbeck So the rolling peg was designed
dzimbeck similar to an economic crawling peg
dzimbeck The way it works is this: we can control the supply of the coin by simply freezing it
dzimbeck so as most coins only inflate
dzimbeck this coin does both
dzimbeck it inflates and deflates
yin :open_mouth:
dzimbeck but it only freezes the coins temporarily to stop dumps on the market
dzimbeck and it does so exactly fairly
codnose It's been a bad 24 hours for lots of alts. It will bounce back @btcmacroecon ;)
dzimbeck coins have memory in this system so each coin knows it's own liquidity
funkedelics proof to back up your claim? Munti Actually particl (then shadowcoin) tried to hire David to make the marketplace for them many years ago. When he declined, they tried to revers enginer his code. They failed :slightly_smiling_face: Posted in #trading_altcoinsToday at 7:09 PM
dzimbeck reddit
btcmacroecon yah i hope to reposition on this coin as we speak
codnose Good few days for bay recently. I'm holding since a while back
dzimbeck there is proof where I fought with veritasBS from ShadowCash
dzimbeck They tried to reverse my code
Bitbay1 Freezing via decentralized voting?
dzimbeck it was famous
funkedelics link?
Munti @funkedelics On reddit as David said. I'm sure we can find a link for you after this session is over
dzimbeck Someone else can find it
dzimbeck @funkedelics
dzimbeck It is on the blackcoin subreddit
btcmacroecon what are you doing to avoid illegal activity, kyc, and silk road activity?
dzimbeck if you wanna look
dzimbeck @btcmacroecon I have a mod key which users subscribe to
dzimbeck which is handed out
dzimbeck so decentralized mod i guess
dzimbeck also users encrypt their IP within their orders
dzimbeck so if for some reason a swat team shows up at my house I just tell them they are free to use it
kimchi What is the return or refund?..
dzimbeck In theory we shouldn't need to deal with silk road type problems
btcmacroecon id say get a fkn warrant, shut the door
dzimbeck since we don't host anything
dzimbeck That too
codnose Rolling peg sounds very interesting. Is there a link here?
dzimbeck But we don't live in a fair world @btcmacroecon
dzimbeck USA arrested a guy in Greece who was a Russian citizen
dzimbeck nonsense
btcmacroecon and those that vote i big corrupt government blame trump
dzimbeck https://bitbay.market/about/pegging/ BitBay Rolling Peg - BitBay Price volatility is cryptocurrency's biggest challenge - BitBay's rolling peg will reduce volatility by dynamically controlling supply. Learn more here.
dzimbeck Never blame Trump
dzimbeck blame military intelligence
dzimbeck and compartmentalization
Munti @codnose our site is going through a little redesign atm, but the info on the rolling peg will be back up soon
btcmacroecon new vorld odor! I blame "globalism"
imyb commented on Bitbay1’s file m2.jpg Is this really what it's going to look like?
dzimbeck :smile:
codnose Great thanks @Munti
Munti LOL, it was back up (edited)
dzimbeck well whatever powerful people do
dzimbeck it's our job to come up with solutions like unbreakable contracts
dzimbeck these contracts work in an anarchy
dzimbeck literally
dzimbeck The rolling peg is meant to allow low cap coins
dzimbeck to thrive
little_round @imyb No, it will be changed
dzimbeck because the control of supply lets us force the price
dzimbeck by voting on supply
yin damn your product sounds awesome! but you need a redesign of your website :smile:
dzimbeck so example
btcmacroecon so you in essence have a dashboard already active.
dzimbeck if a user has 1000 coins at 100% at .10 cents per coin
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dzimbeck and the network deflates to 50%
dzimbeck he would have 500 coins liquid and 500 frozen
Munti @btcmacroecon What do you mean by dashboard?
dzimbeck he can move the liquid coins as much as he wants
btcmacroecon you have a marketplace or dashboard like ebay has basically?
dzimbeck the frozen coins he can move but with a penalty a one month delay
Munti @btcmacroecon Yes (edited)
dzimbeck which makes a secondary market for trading frozen coins
codnose Like the eBay dashboard right @btcmacroecon ?
dzimbeck at a more speculative value
btcmacroecon you just need to expand on it with volume
Bitbay1 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9hEpu8gZMzEcP22rMYX0Iw/videos YouTube BitBay Official BitBay youtube channel
dzimbeck we can assume his liquid coins would be worth about double than before if demand is about the same
btcmacroecon do you offer any affiliate programs to market for that volume?
dzimbeck Good idea
dzimbeck @btcmacroecon Working on that now
dzimbeck We have just started discussions about incentives
dzimbeck @kimchi please elaborate
dzimbeck return or refund on what?
kimchi I bought shoes. But what if a brick comes? There is an image on top that sells shoes.
dzimbeck Then seller would pay 100 dollars
dzimbeck if you blow it up
dzimbeck so negotiate a refund
dzimbeck the seller will most definitely reconsider
dzimbeck since he doesn't want to pay 100 dollars to be a joker
dzimbeck You can cancel contracts
dzimbeck returning all funds
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dzimbeck upon mutual consent
dzimbeck everything is consent
btcmacroecon does bitbay have the ability to accept payment in a variety of cryptocurrency? I think that's where volume could come in, or a gateway to exchange tokens and buyer / seller can arrive at payment and yet can be worked via bitbay smart contract or escrowing? could that work, is it possible, if not care to explore it?
dzimbeck the way a contract should be
dzimbeck Yes
codnose Ha that's awesome actually. Why would a seller send anything else knowing they'd lose their deposit ?
dzimbeck You can use Ark to pay
dzimbeck Bay is only used as a deposit
dzimbeck you might have to specify the coins you would accept in your contract
ulyssessyoungo nice
ulyssessyoungo i like that
btcmacroecon and what about dogecoin for example?
codnose Yeah that's cool
ulyssessyoungo Definitely adds to the viability of the platform
codnose Whatcoin? Lol
dzimbeck yeah codnose it forces honesty
dzimbeck and the same for employees
Munti @btcmacroecon Also, our platform is very broad. You can use it for almost anything. We already had all kinds of things sold there from pins to property. Many coins have also been sold there. Our market is like an improved localbitcoin. Binary opptions is also you can find on our marketoplace regularly. And I'm sure we havent even scrathced the surface yet. In the future we will have API's so ppl can tailor their own version of our marketplace.
dzimbeck if I hire someone using this system
btcmacroecon ok deposit only, making more sense now
ulyssessyoungo BAY as a currency would certainly take off best after the Rolling Peg
dzimbeck they better do what they say
ulyssessyoungo but in the meantime that's awesome that you can use other coins
dzimbeck I actually used to it motivate myself
Bitbay1 Why not sell Ark for Bay on the market :slightly_smiling_face:
Bitbay1 or Btc
dzimbeck had my friend blow up my money if I didn't do my daily errands
dzimbeck imagine having 10 grand deterrent
dzimbeck :smile:
bivins Greetings
dzimbeck You can trade coins on the market
dzimbeck especially microtrade
codnose You bought some land using this you said @Munti ?
dzimbeck but it is slow
dzimbeck for that I recommend atomic trade
dzimbeck It's not that fast paced trading that traders demand...
dzimbeck but
codnose No worries about losing any money ? I take it it wasn't just a few dollars
dzimbeck Someone did sell IOTA on our platform
dzimbeck and did lots of deals
Bitbay1 yes before IOTA came into the exchanges
Munti @codnose Yes I did. Got the paperwork in the mail today. 5 acres of land in California. (And I live in Norway) (edited)
prasanth can we stake coins in the market client??
Munti Yes
dzimbeck Staking is done using 2 keys
dzimbeck so you can actually stake over LAN too
tranzer Could BitBay somehow bridge with Ark and offer their services to Ark users?
dzimbeck using 2 computers
dzimbeck it's called "cold staking"
dzimbeck no hacking is possible here
dzimbeck ever
dzimbeck you can hide keys in images
btcmacroecon ok i admit failure on setting up CoinURL as I tried to set up online store, to sell some code, my wildlife photography, and rocks and gems I prospect, I'd like to set up BitBay on an Iframe into my site, and capture affiliate biz. Sounds like this is almost possible, and I could sell my jade right through my site, at least offer it up, right?
dzimbeck and have dual passwords and use 2 computers to sign transactions automated
Munti @tranzer We would have to look into that. But I don't see any reason why we could not.
dzimbeck We need a web wallet
dzimbeck that is our biggest challenge
dzimbeck since I made this with a "security first" attitude
dzimbeck being a cryptographer (edited)
dzimbeck I forgot the reason to make everything web based
Munti @btcmacroecon We are not quite there yet, but yes, that's where we're going
dzimbeck Didn't want to sacrifice security
dzimbeck now I realize there is a need for web based platforms
codnose I follow you on twitter and saw that mentioned the other day. It's coming soon? @dzimbeck
dzimbeck that sacrifice a little security for speed and ease of use in phones
dzimbeck A web wallet?
codnose Yeah
dzimbeck Yeah well we will have a basic web wallet very soon
dzimbeck its actually a very nice one (edited)
dzimbeck But I was referring to a market wallet
dzimbeck one with the full contract implementation
dzimbeck we hope to do that after the peg is successful
Munti Keep an eye on our next weekly update (sunday) for roadmap for the rest of this year. You will get details there
dzimbeck since it's more important to deliver on what I promise
dzimbeck than to make up new features
dzimbeck aka "scope creep" a programmers worst enemy
mergatroid Hello
dzimbeck Hi
mergatroid Please comment on recent news around SEC delistings on bittrex - what steps are you taking to communicate with user base as to whether your a security and what you plan to do if you are classified as such
dzimbeck The rolling peg is the priority
dzimbeck Since Tether is unreliable
dzimbeck this is a decentralized peg
dzimbeck that isn't fixed at a certain price
dzimbeck so it can "roll" the price up
codnose Sounds like you have a lot of nice things planned :)
dzimbeck so it starts at say 5 cents
dzimbeck and slowly rolls up to 10 cents
dzimbeck over X amount of time
dzimbeck after that we would love to focus on web implementations
dzimbeck however anyone who wants to plug this into their site should contact us, we can set up some API calls for sure
Munti @mergatroid I just became aware of the SEC issue on Bittrex today, and have not had time to study it. But going by the little I did read, it doesn't seem to be a problem for us.
mergatroid Ok - so no plan so far understand
dzimbeck we aren't a security
dzimbeck because we don't pay dividends
mergatroid Thankyou
codnose Just on your website now @dzimbeck @Munti
dr10 OK we are approaching 1 hour mark. If you guys have any questions left, go ahead. Anything bitbay.market team would like to add or tell - feel free to do.
V01D Thanks for your time bitbay team
dzimbeck Thanks for doing this! It was fun. And maybe I have a few questions about Ark later
dzimbeck :slightly_smiling_face:
codnose Looking good. Thanks for stopping by :)
dzimbeck Any other questions?
dzimbeck Perhaps regarding the peg, contracts or markets?
Boris Is dzimbeck a god?
dzimbeck :smile:
dzimbeck no
dzimbeck I bleed
codnose Haha I'd heard that too
codnose At least in coding terms lol
dr10 Thank you David and Bjørn for taking the time to do this AMA! All the best with the project and you are always welcome to hang around our Slack
Munti If anyone wants more info, you are welcome to our slack http://bitbay.market/wp-login.php?action=slack-invitation
dzimbeck Honestly a little bit of effort is all these things take
dzimbeck Thanks dr10
Munti Thanks for having us. This was fun
submitted by Dr10tv to ArkEcosystem [link] [comments]

Why is there a proof of work?

I am not a mathematician or cryptography expert so if this sounds stupid please clarify why, thanks!
BitMessage is a messaging system, so no verification of balances/transactions/etc. required, just passing of anonymous messages. Sounds like the proof-of-work is something that is made up to cost electricity, while there is no calculation needed to PASS messages...unlike Bitcoin where transactions need to be verified (it's money, not p2p messaging).
Please explain why I just said something stupid, if I did...
submitted by reb00ttheM to bitmessage [link] [comments]

Freenug tries to explain the WebOfCredit to sridhar and crainbr, but it goes into identification and not very interesting. Dump of tendermint.slack #cosmos

Still haven't calculated supply rate for atom vs ether but this was surprising to read

freenug 4:35 AM replied to a thread: but what will they use for ethermint? 3 replies from crainbf and freenug The problem with that though is that if ATOM is to be so inflationary it will be expensive to keep it in contracts. I think these very high block rewards may be a mistake because it makes them unattractive as a store of value (compared to ETH for example) and if no one wants them for that purpose they would only be to be used as transaction fees (which doesn't work either because most hodlers have to lock them up as delegation deposits) or to earn transaction fees as ETH/BTC from dalidating/delegating. This isn't a completely free/voluntary market, but validators could vote to lower the cost of holding ATOM. I think this could mean more real income for validators and better security. (edited) ghostqs 6:15 AM joined #cosmos. Also, @bitwave joined, @madeyes joined, @padap joined, @gfrivolt joined, @cosmosredje joined, @jiook joined, @fredde767 joined. crainbf 1:17 PM @freenug Just pointing out that Ethereum’s current inflation rate is ~15% so much more than what we have currently planned. I agree that if the inflation rate is super high this can become an issue, but probably at sub-20% in the first years volatility will have far more weight sridhar 1:49 PM Is inflation not market determined? Why should we explicitly have any inflation rate? Of course, Governance can always reissue atoms, so I'm not clear why inflation is necessary. 1:50 Why not just go with tx fees? crainbf 1:52 PM It turns out we have a blog post on that :slightly_smiling_face: https://cosmos.network/blog/inflation-cosmos 1:53 Just tx fees would likely not be sufficient to incentivize validators for quite a long time. (Maybe at some point it will be enough. But there would need to be very serious usage of Cosmos) freenug 1:53 PM @sridhar We are talking about dilution really; monetary inflation not price inflation. This isn't determined by the market. (edited) sridhar 1:58 PM Thanks for your responses. I'm reading the document. 2:00 It looks like we are building a world reserve bank with a democratic governance structure. I'm getting so excited about this project.

Problem with voting

freenug 2:02 PM It is "democratic" like a corporate shareholder's board. :slightly_smiling_face: I might argue that the only democracy is one in which everyone in the world gets a vote but I don't think this is desirable. 2:03 The reason is that it is too much work for most people to research the issues so it is too easy to manipulate/bribe a group of them. sridhar 2:04 PM Yeah...corporate shareholder is the right analogy. :slightly_smiling_face: crainbf 2:05 PM Something like that :slightly_smiling_face: Once we have proper decentralized identity systems, we could perhaps build a reserve bank that has a democratic control structure freenug 2:05 PM Sometimes it is obvious what is in the majority interest and then democracy can work so long as enough of us vote.

Pseudonymous cryptostate

freenug 2:11 PM @crainbf Would these identities be public? If not, who would manage them? 2:13 I would suggest a different form of identity. Pseudonyms based on works donated to the public domain. Writing software, research, etc, pseudonymously. sridhar 2:15 PM How do we donate work to public domain without having an identity in the first place? crainbf 2:15 PM That’s the issue. They probably shouldn’t be public. Otherwise the system would be vulnerable. So you’d want people to have a unique identity but not have a central institution that issues them. And you would want to make sure that no sybil attacks can take place. (So I can’t create 10,000 identities and overwhelm the voting process.) It’s a very hard problem to solve, but when it is solved tons of very interesting things become possible freenug 2:16 PM @sridhar You mean how do we know they are plagiarized? 2:16 I don't see the problem. robin 2:17 PM I don't get this, why is there a 'Cosmos Address' on the fundraiser page? I didn't get an address during the fundraiser. sridhar 2:17 PM I'm talking about unique identities. 2:18 I think crainbf explains it well. People can create multiple identities 2:18 How do we ensure uniqueness - 1 person 1 identity. crainbf 2:20 PM @sridhar Yes, very difficult problem. I think uport is working on stuff going in that direction. But I think it will be years until we have even a half-way decent solution 2:20 @robin You can generate your Cosmos address from the 12-word seed. As long as you have the seed, all is good robin 2:20 PM Oh, great to hear that. sridhar 2:21 PM Interesting... taking a look at uport. freenug 2:21 PM "That’s the issue. They probably shouldn’t be public." It is very difficult keeping identity from being public if you participate in public research. Pseudonymity is the best we could hope for. It would work a lot better if many people were doing it. We could incentivize people to do it by issuing currency as rewards, but how to do this without a central issuer? The WebOfCredit is how. crainbf 2:28 PM A general idea is web of trust. So people sign each others identities. 2:29 Martin Köppelmann (of Gnosis) has also done some work on that with his universal basic income concept Circles. Might be worth checking out: https://ourbasicincome.wordpress.com/ circles circles Universal Basic Income freenug 2:32 PM "(So I can’t create 10,000 identities and overwhelm the voting process.)" It requires work to produce contributions to the public domain. Each work is associated with a unique creditclaim token that can be divided into however many shares and traded. The creditclaims are associated with the contribution. Start with a market for creditclaims, then large holders agree to fixed exchanged rates for the creditclaims, they put them into a contract that backs "mixcredit" (a cryptocurrency). Cryptocredit consist of all the creditclaims and mixcredit, with the unit size defined by the exchange rates set by the contract. (edited) crainbf 2:34 PM Sure, but then you’re not getting close to 1 person == 1 identity. Some people are lazy or don’t want to do any work, they will have no tokens. Others do lots of work and can get lots of tokens. 2:35 Am sure that can have value too, but it’s not really useful to create a “democratic” process in the traditional sense freenug 2:36 PM Yeah I don't think one-person-one-vote is in the majority interest in this case. There's no privacy and no incentive to work. (edited) freenug 2:43 PM It is not because they are lazy, it is because they don't produce information goods. What they produce people will pay them to do, because they have to. We usually don't have to pay for information goods once they are released to the public internet. It seems that copy restriction is going to be impossible before long. (edited) 2:46 So in addition to being the only way to protect privacy for contributors of free culture, the WebOfCredit is the best way to fund information goods. The only way to do so completely voluntarily (no need for taxes) and without crippling the utility/benefit with things like copy restrictions, NDAs, or ads. (edited) sridhar 3:14 PM @freenug @crainbf Thanks both for sharing your thoughts. I like the WebOfCredit model, but with information/contributions we need authenticity, verifiability, Unless we have verification model those credits might not be worth much. 3:16 Let's take StackOverflow- they do have credits- but what is the price of those credits? 3:17 May be new users should purchase credits to ask a question...so may be...it might work. freenug 3:19 PM @sridhar I don't think you need to make them pay. They are paying with their attention. They are adding value by asking good questions. You just make the exchange rates for the creditclaims of the answers, more favorable than the rate for the questions. 3:19 The market for cryptoassets is vast and untapped.

Incentive to run servers or nodes

sridhar 3:20 PM But what is the incentive for someone to run such a system? Unless those credits are not priced? freenug 3:20 PM Look at how they had to restrict the ATOM token sale. They aren't meeting the demand. 3:21 What do you mean "run" the system? 3:21 What is the incentive to do all this for free like we are right now? 3:22 Steem has got all kinds of problems. Akasha looks interesting but it needs a web portal. sridhar 3:25 PM Running as in...someone(or collectively) has to contribute physical resources - server, bandwidth, etc... how do these credits incentivize them? 3:25 I think transaction costs handle it well in the case of crypto world... freenug 3:26 PM Aside from the technical features the value of a cryptocurrency comes from its scarcity, distribution, and network effects. Something that integrates with a social network will do very well. Steem doesn't because currency decisions are more or less centralized and mismanaged. (edited) jackson_ 3:26 PM joined #cosmos freenug 3:27 PM We have all kinds of untapped physical resources. Are you using your computer's capacity? I'm not. sridhar 3:28 PM yeah true. 3:30 I think that going forward, any protocol should have some sort of verifiability built in. For example: email- We need a way to verify the email has been sent/received/read etc. Any action should be verifiable. Only after that truly decentralized system might be possible. 3:30 I mean, truly decentralized systems that are "usable" 3:31 usable by common people. freenug 3:31 PM Buterin has an excellent idea for how to tap some of this with Casper. Low deposits to be a validator (32 ETH but not sure how low that will be for very long lol) and the ability to log off, so it becomes just like a p2p network instead of a server holding private keys you have to babysit.

Verified recipients

3:34 "We need a way to verify the email has been sent/received/read etc" i don't want anyone knowing when i read something, i'd rather download vast swaths so they don't know what im reading. 3:35 but this can be good to. we can see each other typing (edited) sridhar 3:35 PM Depends on how you see it. I was thinking of a DApp on Ethereum 3:35 Only half of it could be made a DApp. 3:35 The rest needs some sort of centralized resources 3:36 to make sure that email has been sent or delivered only once and so on. 3:36 Otherwise, we cannot give good user experience to users. 3:37 If some decentralized system can guarantee that email would be sent only once, then this could be 100% a DApp. 3:38 Basically a decentralized queuing system is what I'm looking for. freenug 3:38 PM "Any action should be verifiable." You do that with signatures. We both have an encrypted/authenticated connection with Slack. sridhar 3:39 PM 1. Decentralized clock, 2. Decentralized queue. 3. Decentralized event processor. 3:40 Yeah, I'm talking about the existing protocols...."email" is apparently the most used of the existing protocol. 3:40 Atleast email is the identity as of now. freenug 3:40 PM 123 = blockchain sridhar 3:41 PM Ok, let me ask you this question- let's say I want to give something to you. How will I notify you, who do not have a blockchain based identity. 3:42 123 = blockchain....probably...I'm missing something.. :slightly_smiling_face: freenug 3:44 PM Email is required for registration of many things either to outsource the CAPTCHA stuff, to reset passwords, or to send spam. sridhar 3:46 PM Yeah...I'm missing 4. Interfacing with external systems. 3:46 :slightly_smiling_face: freenug 3:46 PM "How will I notify you, who do not have a blockchain based identity." It depends. How do we know each other? Are you assuming that we trust our current connection? sridhar 3:46 PM Yes. freenug 3:47 PM okay so we trade public keys or we trust a mutual service like Slack to manage this for us sridhar 3:48 PM Hmm....then we are again getting to centralized systems who store data about us. freenug 3:49 PM There is a process to associate a PGP key with a bitcoin address. 3:50 https://bitcoin-otc.com/ 3:51 pgp is kinda a pain, central services are easier for the time being 3:52 Does that explain it? What central services? alrose 3:53 PM joined #cosmos sridhar 3:53 PM Or, I think I should go with some sort of DAO with the central components managed by this DAO 3:55 So I can replace the central component with some other providers. 3:55 Based on the decision of the DAO. 3:55 I'm checking bitcoin-otc freenug 4:04 PM I only posted that link because it says somewhere how to associate a pgp key with a bitcoin address but maybe that is what you are looking for. Or maybe BitMessage is what you want because all nodes hold all messages for a few days. Just seems more expensive than something with a little redundancy in case one "center" fails. (edited) 4:06 "Hmm....then we are again getting to centralized systems who store data about us." I was answering how to get verifiable messages. (Ethereum would give them to you faster.) With public blockchain instead of a central service you have a public database, so no privacy, well pseudonymous at best. (edited) freenug 4:13 PM With a central service, the recipient could sign a message saying which messages of yours they received but of course you can't know unless the message gets to you. (edited)
submitted by scriprinter to ethereoscrap [link] [comments]

Using the Bitcoin protocol for more than just money

I think Bitcoin is a very interesting technology, and I'm glad to see it's taking off. But at the same time, I think it could be so much more. The real interesting technology is the block chain. With a few improvements and minor modifications, it could be the basis of much more than a digital currency. Namecoin and Bitmessage are two examples of other uses for a block chain, but AFAIK each uses their own, independent chain and network. I feel like should be possible to combine them.
Please mind that I haven't studied the protocol in extreme detail and I'm not a mathematician or a cryptographer, so I might be wrong on some understandings of the details. Corrections are highly welcomed.
Please also don't just view this as another "Bitcoin protocol sux, here's how it should be done" post. That's only the first section. ;-)

Improving the protocol

Firstly, I think the biggest issue Bitcoin (and all alternatives I know of) has is overhead. The block chain is several gigabytes, and bitcoind likes to choke my network with a lot of connections and big uploads.
Maybe the growth of technology will outpace the growth of Bitcoin's resource needs, but I don't think we can rely on that. Phones have been stuck at ~16GB of internal storage for quite a while now (maybe there are some reaching 32 and 64GB, but I don't know of any), and internet service is actually making backward progress in much of the western world - slower connections and tighter caps. One of Bitcoin's goals is also to prevent being controlled by any government or central authority - but if it relies on fast network connections, that's something an oppressive government can easily restrict to choke it.
Especially for a new client, to have to download the entire block chain can be daunting. And for a mobile client, the amount of network I/O seems like far too much for the piddly data caps mobile networks have, and the block chain would quickly eat up their available storage.

Size of the block chain

My understanding is that the solution to the blockchain size issue is to create a new genesis block; essentially replace the entire chain with a single block containing a hash of all previous blocks and start chaining again from there. But as far as I know, this is something that the Bitcoin developers have to do manually with a change to the source code (which also means they have to be able to do it - what if they disappear?), and this hasn't been done yet. This new genesis block creation needs to be built into the protocol and happen automatically, so that the chain never grows too large.

Network strain

As for network issues, I don't know why Bitcoin requires so much overhead, but I believe it's from clients transmitting large portions of the block chain (sometimes the entire chain) to new clients who don't have it. I think a simple solution here would be to download small chunks from many clients instead of large chunks from a few clients. The new client still has to download all the blocks it's missing, but the sending clients don't need to upload as much, so their connections won't be as strained.

Block generation rate

One thing I've never understood is why blocks are generated at 10-minute intervals. Litecoin shortens that to 2.5 minutes, but that's still fairly long. 10 minutes might be plenty of time if you're ordering online, but if you want Bitcoin to completely replace fiat currency, it needs to be as fast as fiat currency. Nobody wants to wait 2.5 minutes (let alone 10) in the grocery store or fast food drive-thru for their transaction to go through. Cash payments can be as simple as handing over a bill, and debit payments can complete in a few seconds.
The usual suggestion for how to resolve this is to put some Bitcoin in an account, controlled by some payment processor, so that when you later want to actually buy something, you just ask the processor to transfer from your account and they can do so immediately, and the shopkeeper can trust that the transaction will go through. But isn't this just a bank? How can we be sure we can trust the payment processors to not just run off with the money (especially with no controlling authority), and to not pull the kinds of annoying things banks do (fees fees fees)? To me it seems like relying on some third party to handle your Bitcoins is no better than the existing system Bitcoin intends to replace.

Scientific value of computations

One altcoin that I really like is Primecoin. Instead of brute-forcing hashes, Primecoin's proof of work is finding prime numbers. I feel like this is a nice benefit - in addition to everything the network does, now it's also doing calculations that are useful to science, instead of calculations that exist solely to be difficult.
Of course, if someone found a much more efficient algorithm to compute prime numbers, then this protocol would break. But the same is true of the hashing Bitcoin uses. Also, most existing cryptography is based on prime numbers, so I think there'd be a lot more to worry about than just Bitcoin. (That also implies that if the difficulty of prime numbers is trustworthy enough for everything else, it's probably good enough for Bitcoin too.) In either case, the protocol can be updated to a harder algorithm (even if it means going back to calculations that aren't scientifically valuable).

Using the block chain for messages and information

Already, every client has to download every block, and look through it for transactions involving its addresses. It should be an obvious and trivial extension to allow it to store messages sent to a Bitcoin address as well. This method of exchanging messages has a few nice advantages as well:

Making Bitcoin function as a P2P file sharing network

Expanding on the above idea: who says the messages have to be text? By using a binary format (perhaps with a container such as a zip file), it would be simple to send someone a file this way as well.
Of course, once you start sending blocks containing files, the size of the block chain becomes an issue again (and the size/quantity of the blocks for a large file could push transaction fees quite high as well). I think there are various ways to resolve this.
The way that appeals to me is to do what Freenet does:
I've emphasized may here because it's important in Freenet. Since there's no guarantee which clients will save/pass along a chunk, it's difficult to tell which clients have it.
Bitcoin clients, then, would be running this sort of chunk exchange system to share files. The block chain would just keep a record of the file's existence. It would identify the chunks that belong to a particular file, and perhaps the "owner" of the file - so that just as only the owner of a coin can spend it, only the owner of a file can upload a new version of it. Clients might also periodically broadcast a public message, stating that they have (or no longer have, or know where to find) chunks X, Y and Z (which may or may not be all the chunks they have).
Of course, another way to share files would be to simply broadcast a message saying "file X can be found at ftp://blah.blah.blah/X". But this isn't really sharing files, only their locations. This method doesn't give you any of the benefits of the Freenet method, but it might be suitable if you don't care about people being able to find out that it was you, in particular, who uploaded/downloaded the file. (Peers could still randomly grab copies of the file and rehost them, perhaps in chunks, to maintain availability and mask who's actually requesting it.)
Again, it'd be possible to encrypt a file with someone's public key, or leave it in plaintext so everyone can see. What Freenet does is something along the lines of including the decryption key in the file's URI. That way the nodes who hang on to its chunks can't know their contents (which means you can't get in trouble if someone uploads something illegal and your node happens to cache it), but anyone can be given the URI, allowing them to decrypt the file.

Using the block chain as a generic record of object ownership

Already the block chain is essentially a big record of who owns what coins. More generally, it's a giant key-value store. Spending a coin is telling all your peers "I'm giving Bob ownership of my Foo", and having them agree that you're able to do that. There should be little reason it couldn't record the ownership of other things, and other messages than just transfers of ownership, such as:
TL;DR Bitcoin and its block chain technology could be not just a digital currency, but the future of decentralized networking, incorporating email, DNS, file transfer and just about anything else all in one system.
(edit: add a couple more possible uses)
submitted by RenaKunisaki to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

Twister, enfin un réseau social décentralisé ?

Voici le lien vers leur nouvelle page de présentation toute belle, toute neuve et en anglais : http://twister.net.co/
Et puis le papier plus technique (et toujours en anglais) : http://arxiv.org/pdf/1312.7152v1
Bon, je n'ai pas fini de lire le papier, ni eu l'occasion de jouer avec les code source fournis, les fêtes et le travail c'est prenant, bonne année o/. Du coup mon résumé sera partiel.
Basiquement c'est un réseau social twitter like complètement décentralisé et chiffré, s'appuyant sur une blockchain à la Bitcoin et quelques outils développés pour Bittorent. L'accent est mit sur la facilité d'utilisation, ce qui pèche beaucoup dans ce genre de projets d'habitude il faut l'avouer.
Ainsi, la blockchain utilisée sert a réserver les noms d'utilisateurs, permettant d'avoir un pseudonyme classique plutôt qu'une adresse aléatoire. D'après ce que j'ai compris pour l'instant, les messages ne sont pas enregistrés dans la blockchain, ils sont enregistrés grâce a une "Distributed Hash Table" (une base de donnée clé/valeur distribuée). Et grande nouveauté pour un protocole basé sur une blockchain, il n'y a pas de monnaie associée ! L'intérêt pour les mineurs de miner est que quand quelqu'un trouve un bloc, il a le droit d'envoyer un message "promoted" que tous les clients devraient afficher... De la publicité en peer to peer, je ne sais pas si c'est une première, mais ça peut être noté.
J'ai quelques craintes quand a la viabilité de la chose dans la nature. Notamment rien n’empêche techniquement un client de ne pas afficher les message "promoted", réduisant l’intérêt de fournir de la puissance de calcul (une 51% pourrait entraîner des vols d'identité). Et puis il y a des proof of work un peut partout pour éviter le spam (à la façon Bitmessage), je n'ai jamais eu confiance en ce mécanisme, si on permet à un desktop de faire une opération en quelques secondes/minutes, je ne vois pas comment ça empêche complètement un botnet de spammer. Mais bon, le moyen le plus simple de savoir si ça marche c'est de tenter grandeur nature... Et au pire on se retrouve avec un réseau social qui ne fonctionne pas bien, c'est pas la fin du monde.
Encore une foi, je n'ai pas bien fait mes devoirs, j'ai survolé rapidement le white paper et puis j'ai commencé ma journée de travail. Il peut donc y avoir des erreurs qui se glissent dans ce que j'ai compris de la bête.
Bref, j'aimerai savoir ce que vous pensez de Twister. Techniquement est-ce viable ? A-t'on besoin d'un nouveau réseau social chiffré ?
Personnellement, je pense que si il tiens ses promesses, grande facilité d'utilisation et grosse cryptographie, identi.ca et compagnie seront très vite aussi obsolètes que les page web sans css.
submitted by JeanBono to BitcoinFrance [link] [comments]

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